Taylor Avakian
Welcome to the podcast. My name is Taylor Avakian and I'm here with my esteemed guest Sandy Man. Sandy, thank you for being here.
April 1, 2025 · 1 hr 16 min
From Radio Shack to Gold Billionaire: The Sandi Mann Story
With Sandi Mann — Real Estate & Gold Investor
Listen to the full episode1 hr 16 min
The episode in one minute
What this conversation gets into
How do you go from selling mattresses to building a massive real estate portfolio and Billion Dollar Gold Empire?
Watch the full episodePublisher notes
Episode show notes
How do you go from selling mattresses to building a massive real estate portfolio and Billion Dollar Gold Empire? In this episode, Sandi Mann shares his unexpected path—starting in sales at 15, learning the hustle in commercial brokerage, and eventually building a diversified real estate and business empire. Learn how he: - Went from broker to investor, scaling a multimillion-dollar portfolio - Built a real estate strategy that balances cash flow & long-term appreciation - Survived market crashes & financial crises by adapting and evolving - Used cold calling & persistence to become a top-producing broker - Navigates interest rates, market cycles & investment opportunities today This episode is packed with hard-earned lessons, negotiation strategies, and insights on building long-term wealth through real estate. 🔔 Don’t miss out on the latest trends and tips to maximize your property's potential: https://www.youtube.com/c/TaylorAvakian 📈 Connect with me: Website: https://www.thegroupcre.com/ Email: taylor@thegroupcre.com X: https://x.com/TAYVAY_ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tayloravakian/ #RealEstatePodcast #RealEstateInvesting #CommercialRealEstate #WealthBuilding #MultifamilyInvesting #ColdCalling #MarketCycles #Entrepreneurship #PropertyInvestment #FinancialFreedom
Read the full conversation
Episode transcript
This 15,001-word transcript is matched to English (Original) automatic captions. Timestamps seek the episode player to the matching passage.
0:00–10:00
Sandi Mann
Taylor, thank you for having me. Of course.
Taylor Avakian
Appreciate it. So, you uh you've built quite a portfolio of real estate and you came on the scene. I don't know if you know this, but I first heard of your name when you bought a property in Korea Town, which was where my area of focus was.
Sandi Mann
Sure.
Taylor Avakian
Maybe two or three years ago. Before that, we had not communicated because most of your portfolio is in Long Beach. Um, and then I saw you buying these new construction buildings and I'm like, I got to know that guy. I got to connect with him. I got to know what he's doing cuz he's buying at my market. And so we connected, we talked, um, we had some similar interests and found some similar paths in the same rooms and now we're here today. But we talked before this and you mentioned to me that you were actually a broker back in the day in New York City. Can you talk a little bit about that and then we're going to walk through how Sure.
Sandi Mann
Sure.
Taylor Avakian
You have a massive real estate portfolio and a thriving business.
Sandi Mann
I Well, I grew up on the East Coast and I remember I was in sales since the age of 15.
Taylor Avakian
What were you selling?
Sandi Mann
Um, I worked at Radio Shack actually. No way. I was a box boy in the back and I kept trying to get into the front and to be in sales and commission and I really wanted to buy a Saab 900 and my dad made a deal with me. He said, "If you save half the money for it, I'll pay the other half." So, I was working at a supermarket and then I was bagging groceries for the store manager, Radio Shack, and he said, "Hey, kid, you're wasting your talent here. Come over there." And if you do well in the back stock room, you'll be in sales. And my guys make, you know, 10 bucks an hour commission plus, you know, $4 minimum wage. So, I'm aging myself to the night. And that was a lot of money to me.
Sandi Mann
So, um, I was in the back room and, you know, somebody would order a a receiver, home receiver, and I'd bring it out and I would ask him a couple questions and I would say, you know, I think this is a little too too little power. You need the next model up. And I'd upsell them for an additional 50 bucks. And the manager kept seeing me do this. And he moved me to the front. And uh, you know, I was in high school during the day selling electronics at night at Radio Shack and on the weekends. And, um, you know, I just started selling. And I remember as I started moving through my sales career and I I I left Radio Shack and I moved on to some other retailers. Um one of the owners of this I was working at
Sandi Mann
a mattress company and we had 700 stores nationwide and I was their number one salesman when I was 21 years old and I dropped out of college to go, you know, work in New York City selling mattresses. But that wasn't the end goal. That was just to allow me to get to New York City and then figure out the next move. And he said, "Kid, you were maxed out here. I don't know how you made I made 200 grand selling mattresses." No way. In 2001, and it's just bananas. And the next closest salesman made like I think 120 grand. So he's like, "How did you do it?" And I said, "Um, and his name was Harry Aker." And I have immense respect for Harry because I understood his work ethic. Kid said, "Assume nothing. Check everything."
Sandi Mann
And I still to this day, even if somebody tells you they're going to do something, assume nothing. Check everything. Follow through. Nobody else is going to do that, especially for an entrepreneur. Totally. And Harry said, "How do you sell so many mattresses?" And I said, "I'm not scared to jump into bed with a client." And uh he said, "I hope that's not real." And we left at that. And he said to me, he goes, "You're you're at a ceiling here. You need to get into something that is a higher ticket item to make more money." So I'd asked him, "How do I move up in your company?" And that was the beginning of the end of mattresses, man. I sold mattresses anytime I had a client and I would always ask them about themselves and I met this guy who worked at Marcus and Milichap and he was
Sandi Mann
in sales and I said uh commercial real estate you think you can get me an interview and he said sure kid and I went and I interviewed with a guy named Mitch Labarhu he started the or ran the Inino office he's a legend at Marcus Milichap and uh he was uh this is 2002 now okay and he was sent to New York to start Marcus and Milichap in New York City. Uh so he interviewed me and he said I gave him my whole life story and I said you know I didn't graduate college. I've got great work ethic and what I lack and you know um knowledge I will figure a way out. I will you know stay up all night to learn. And he said I'll give you a desk. And you know and I remember just asking a lot of questions to the seniors
Sandi Mann
who are making money and you know pricing deals based on GRM per square foot cap rate. And I learned early on from the old school guys cap rates irrelevance GRM and some guys were price per unit and some guys were you know there's so many factors among so I would price deals with every possible way and sort of take an aggregate and average it out and see if we were in the neighborhood and you know just speaking to like prospects on the phone I knew when not to waste my time and you know we have aspirational sellers and I would just quickly while I would ask how much are you getting for rent he's like oh I'm getting 1,200 per unit eight units and I would you know multiply that and multiply by you like a 10 GRM to see
Sandi Mann
if his selling price was within the market and if he was within like 10 or 20% I could work that down.
Taylor Avakian
Got it.
Sandi Mann
And so that began my career and I was really good at getting listings. I wasn't great at selling listings. And that's where my senior director came into play and he was selling my deals. I was bringing them in and you know Marcus Anelichap I'll tell you if you are getting into commercial real estate and you want to be in investment sales there's no better operation than Eminem. At least in my insurance. Yeah. Um it was grueling. You know, back then it was 300 phone calls a day. Today I got to imagine it's 500 to a,000 with quick to dial. We were manually you were you were Oh my god. You were digging through your been jacked. Oh, you were digging through um you had these books of owners who owns properties and it would change once a year in the book.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
And the book was, you know, out of date within six months. So you were manually looking through like city records to build a database.
Taylor Avakian
Today it's like, yeah, you got your CRM and stuff like that and everything.
Sandi Mann
Back then you had to build your own CRM from scratch. You had to knock doors and be like, you know, is John Paty still own this building? They're like, he died 13 years ago. And so you you were really doing the hard work of figuring out who owned it and then getting to ownership and um and building that database. But I'll tell you those early years I I I never want to forget the hard work, the door knocks, the wearing a suit and tie in July, heat and humidity in New York City, taking the subway and just trying to loosen up the collar for the drive and button it back up when you meet a principal and just hoping you say something relevant to get, you know, a listing or just to build that relationship.
Taylor Avakian
What so what was your approach because you clearly had sales skills um since you were young and and was able to take that in real estate and I know cold calls is not easy. You were making a lot of them. What what would you do or what would you say on the phones to get a chance to earn the listing or how are you earning all those listings?
Sandi Mann
So overcoming objections in sales number one question based selling number two and not in that order is I was asking a lot of questions because I wanted to figure out why are you selling and do you need to sell? M so there's people who don't need to sell and they want to sell because they have an like oh if I get 15 million I'll sell everything has a price right so it was understanding why they're selling and then understanding what's their
Sandi Mann
upging all the dynamics before that overcoming objections was huge oh well I what if I sell what am I going to do with my money great 1031 here's what we do and here's how private equity or here's how institutions own property 7 years accelerated depreciation then they sell it 1031 and they keep this rolling and I needed to find out if my where he was in his life cycle does he still have the juice to grow a portfolio where's he at the end of it should we be 1031ing everything into a triple net in the Midwest and really sharing with him other clients their experience cuz being a multif family landlord sucks Yeah, it honestly it sucks. I don't enjoy it.
Taylor Avakian
It sucks. And at some point, are you done with that? And do you want to just clip coupons?
Sandi Mann
And so really that was the start of it cuz any broker could call and say, "Hey, are you if I got you 5 million, would you sell?" And they're like, "Of course." Uh but then it was really understanding the need.
Taylor Avakian
Would they really sell? And what would they do with their funds?
Sandi Mann
Because you're not looking to just do one deal. You want to double in one deal and you want to get his up leg in a perfect world. And then you want to keep them in your database and nurture them for the next seven years so you get another deal out of them. So brokerage is relationship building. It's long-term. It's not, you know, let's do a deal today.
Taylor Avakian
No.
Sandi Mann
Um I have ADD and I'm the instant gratification guy. So I remember coming into the business and being like a nine-month close. This is a I I don't have the patience for this. But then what you do is you build up the ninemonth database. So every month something is closing. You have to keep that hopper full. So Marcus Milichop great great institution great to this day they still they still have remained relevant than all.
Taylor Avakian
It's impressive what they've been able to do.
Sandi Mann
Yeah. So um um um Mitch Labar my first boss in real estate. I still we go skiing every year. He's out in Utah now semi-retired. And uh it's funny his son is in the business in Marcus Milichap in Long Beach I believe. Oh there Beach. And uh yeah it's really funny. We we've crossed paths so many times with, you know, brokers who sell me deals, who tell me Mitch Lavar stories. We take a picture and send it back to Mitch. And it's justing never forget the the beginning.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
And and through Marcus Milop, I I wanted to move up a little bit. So I moved to um a great firm in New York who's now now gone out of business. Um was Eastern Consolidated.
Taylor Avakian
And there were sort of How long were you at Marcus?
Sandi Mann
About
10:00–20:00
Sandi Mann
four years. Okay.
Taylor Avakian
And then you moved you stayed in brokerage, went to this other firm.
Sandi Mann
Went to the other firm. They were a larger um um deal larger group that focused more on private capital/institution. So you were looking for listings, you know, above 10 to 80 million. So you could be in that quasi institutional or package them up to the institutions. Yeah. I lacked self-confidence with institutions and you know I I I share that as a strength.
Taylor Avakian
Mhm.
Sandi Mann
Um, I knew where I was weak and knew where I needed to bring in support. And at Eastern, they had institutional knowledge so I could reach the guy who bought a deal for 3 million that was worth 20 million. And then we could package it up and sell it to the institution. Um, because, you know, like I said, I dropped out of college. I didn't go to Wharton School of Business. You know, I was on the opposite end of the spectrum. I was I threw great fraternity parties. Partied hard.
Taylor Avakian
Hustle University, man.
Sandi Mann
Hustle University. And you know um but you know I now was working with a team who understood you know retail um private money family office institution all the the ends of it because I wanted to sell bigger deals again just like Harry Aer told me higher ticket higher dollar amounts yield you more commissions y and so I'd worked there and I learned a lot more about buttoned up sales a lot more about you know we um here's how we present ourselves, here's how we present deals. We're not going to just be the wham bam thank you ma'am machine and that was the next level of brokerage for me and um um you know that was a great experience I had with them um it was 2007 and we woke up one morning got to the office liebore had soared
Sandi Mann
400%. and London in Bay overnight rate and I remember coming to my desk and I didn't I understood that's what we borrowed off of. I didn't understand understood the impact that would have on real estate. Um so I talked to my senior we we met and he said listen if we have committed capital from an institution on a deal it might close. If you have a deal that doesn't have committed capital, it's not going to close. And anything that you're pitching in terms of listing, that price is no longer that's yesterday's price, not today's price. That reality set in real quick. Deal started going south. So before that 08, everyone says 08. It was actually 07, I believe, September, okay, of 07, August, September. And then I was ready to make my next move. And you know, all along working in New York with, you know, the extreme winters, the
Sandi Mann
extreme summers, I wanted something that had year- round weather. And I remember it was um Miami or LA. Those were the two cities cities I was considering. Not two bad choices and not not bad weather related. And um there used to be a social media um um called MySpace and um I went on to MySpace and I had I had my my cool MySpace account with like my 82 friends and there was a poll on there or it was it was a quiz on there. It says um find what city is best for you. So I took a MySpace quiz and it said Los Angeles and I didn't input like that was a consideration. It just said LA. So, I came out to LA that October and I said, "Let me give this a shot. Let me see what LA's all about."
Sandi Mann
And I did a, you know, a month out here to test LA out. And I loved everything about LA. And I, that February of08, I moved to LA with no job, saved up a few bucks. One of those deals closed, nine didn't, 10 listings fell off.
Taylor Avakian
And how much in savings did you did were you doing well in brokerage? Like, were you making a couple hundred thousand o over that?
Sandi Mann
Yeah. Yep. Um, so here was my the reality of it. my 20s in brokerage, I lived fast and hard and as quickly as I was making it, I was spending it. I didn't see the end in sight. Where my senior directors who were like in their 40s, they worked a couple cycles. I haven't worked a downturn. You know, when you're in your 20s, nothing's going to stop the party. Nothing. It's 2 a.m. You're still partying.
Taylor Avakian
When you're growing like this, you're like, that's going to keep going.
Sandi Mann
Exactly. Exponential. So, I always was one deal ahead of my expenses. Got it. So, when I came out here, no, I didn't have a lot. Yeah. Um, I hit a hard reset in '08 cuz I forgot being a 1099 independent contractor, the IRS wants their cut. This is pre-doge. So, the IRS was on you, you know, and they, you know, was I remember uh um, you know, and I'm so humble beginnings return in08 because I owed the IRS six figures. I owed MX30,000. I owed MBNA Visa like 20,000. All these bills were coming in. I had saved money. I had saved enough to pay the bills, but not enough to like survive or thrive in LA. Yeah. So, I had to go back into the workforce. You know, nobody was really hiring in '08 in real estate. And I'd interviewed with Kushman and Wakefield, interviewed with CBRE
Sandi Mann
and Grub and Ellis. And I figured, let me go with a national outfit. And I had an idea. I said um if if real estate if the intrinsic above ground real estate is not transacting there's an aspect of that real estate that needs to transact and that might be the debt side of things because now you have all this toxic debt and you know you were seeing Ben Bernanki on TV saying oh toxic debt d it's going to be you know take banks down and it was so I interviewed Grub and Ellis um really resonated with me at that time and I think they're new Mark now they got uh yeah bought out and they were open to me coming there to help start their banking division where we would go after toxic assets on the debt side.
Sandi Mann
So we, you know, I started there end of o, I'd say summer of08 and rather than calling principles, I didn't even have a I didn't know who bought deals in LA, but I knew that key bank had a lot of exposure deals in LA. I knew that all the Asian regional banks had a lot of exposure to Southern California portfolio. I knew that Zion Bank Corp, parent corp for a lot of other banks had exposure value real estate. So I started jumping on planes meeting with the the the the bankers from those banks saying, "Hey, I have a real estate background. You have value outside of the note. It's the real estate and I have buyers." Even though I didn't have buyers, but those those are easy to get, right? So I said, "Let me sell your loan pools, your portfolio of loans."
Sandi Mann
And I remember this one Asian bank gave me like $10 million of a loan pool of like sea stores and car washes. And I sold it in like three three weeks because there was guys in the industry who had been there for 30 years who were on the banking team and they had on the sell side again just like back to day one. I didn't sell my deals. I just got the listings. So we started getting these loan pools. We started getting I remember Key Bank giving us a was a a deal in downtown LA. I think it was called the flat. It was like 100 plus units and it was like 20 million of debt on the deal.
Taylor Avakian
So you're shopping the debt for someone to buy the note.
Sandi Mann
Exactly. Yep. And we um this this uh buyer was coming in to look at this deal and the senior was like, "Oh, we got a buyer. I think he's going to buy this." So $20 million note and there was a helicopter flying over and my team was like, "That's our buyer." I was like, "Who the heck is that?" It was RD Mareno, the angel's owner. No way. where he like landed on a rooftop like a G. These are those moment like you're like this is so I love shows up to the buyers the tour and you're just like literally in a helicopter comes down comes with his um I believe it was his niece it was his niece and he just looks at the property looks up and down he says yeah we're good and he goes back his helicopter goes away and
Sandi Mann
the niece sticks around and they close on the deal all cashed in like seven days bought the note he forclosed on the deal and I had asked Arty I said hey um is this for like family like what are you doing he goes he goes you know um in life you ever loan your family money because that's not a loan that's just you know you're donating. So with my family I help them to make money. So I buy the real estate they operate it they make money on the operational side and that's how he's helping his family. That was so brilliant. So brilliant. So I you know we were they we had buyers we had loan pools we had debt a year into it we had done you know nine figures of of of of of debt sales. Jeez. And then some of the buyers were giving us the REO
Sandi Mann
back once they foreclose and they were getting deed and loo and you know it. So we got listings and then you talk about like regulation you know which is very prohibitive to business when you have a business model because then you got to shift and it was right about this time in I think it's 2009 that the Federal Reserve said um we can mark to market. You no longer need to sell toxic debt. you can just mark it to the value and it's off your your balance sheet. Ah, and I'm like, wait, that means banks don't have to sell notes at a loss and they don't they were rapid firing notes and you know just like that that loan pool sales gone. Now we were working more on the REO side. So some banks have taken over you know real estate and banks were not giving you listings on REO.
Sandi Mann
to just bring us a buyer. And they were getting so many calls from principles, from brokers. And so I said, "All right, let me shift to REO." So we we had some pocket listings and we would vet buyers and say, "Hey, will you cover my commission on the deal if I bring you a deal?" And they said, "Yes." And you know, we successfully sold a few deals and then I had a deal was a $30 million deal in downtown Santa Monica. And you know, I'm still just getting by by the way because all those deals we're getting, the banks are paying you 50 bits.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
Yeah. They're not giving a whole lot of money. To them, that's a lot. To me, I'm like, "Hey, we charge 5%." They're 5%. Not in our world. So, it was a dichotomy between sellers and buyers and listings. And then REO, I remember, had a $30 million pocket deal in
20:00–30:00
Sandi Mann
Santa Monica. It was from Key Bank. It was coming back. And the buyer said, "Hey, I'll cover you guys. I'll give you, you know, couple points on the deal." And um, you know, about a month later, our buyer closed on the deal without us. and you know we didn't have anything in writing and it was just yet again in brokerage which is such a difficult business is buyers man they suck and uh so you know I got screwed on this deal I I'm already like one foot in one foot out I just had to retool now I got to retool because buyers and we couldn't get listings and you know I had enough I had enough in brokerage and I said let me take a year off until traditional brokerage comes back where you are dealing with true principles on the sell side and the buy side,
Sandi Mann
not institutions, not bottom feeders, but like true market movers. And so, you know, I had to make a decision. Do I move back to New York and go back to Eastern Consolidated or do I stay in LA? And by now, you know, 3 years in, you build a a an ecosystem here socially. You know, you've got your your morning hikes, your runs that we take for granted in LA, but in New York, you know, I'll tell you right now, you ain't going hiking before you're, you know, going to you're not running seven miles in the morning for your office. You're not going out on the weekends and hang out by your pool and coming back with a tan on Monday. Those are all hard things to do in New York. And I I didn't want to give up the lifestyle. So, I I was willing to do whatever.
Sandi Mann
And I and you know, being in sales, I um asked a bunch of friends, "What are you guys doing? What's working now?" And you know my my family you know immigrant um uh family we we parents moved here from London when I was a year old and um you know my parents used to buy gold you know that was like you know coming from India hard yeah we don't trust the government we don't trust paper we trust physical so we always had gold in us and I knew that you know gold like 200 or 400 800 and my friend said I I work on the retail brokerage side of gold and I said you know that seems interesting can I make money there and it seemed to be like what I was banking in real estate back in the day.
Taylor Avakian
Wow.
Sandi Mann
So I said, "Hey, let me hide out and in this industry for a year, make up for some get some cash, come back in brokerage when it's goes back to traditional brokerage." And you know, I got into that business. And I talked earlier about add about the long cycle of real estate. Well, the gold cycle is short. It could be like say one call close. It could be like a week. It could be like a month. But it was quicker deals and there were sizable deals. The average order size back then was a like 50 to 100 grand and you make a commission on that and you know I became really good at it. Who are the buyers and sellers in the gold brokers? Oh, it's so crazy. So the so the sellers are are the mints. They're whether it's like out of Switzerland or even the US men.
Sandi Mann
They sell product bars coins. The buyers were just retail guys. Some like real estate guys who buy gold. It's mom and pops. It was people in the Midwest. You know, it it was interesting because for the longest time, gold buyers were traditionally like tinfoil hack guys who thought the world was going to end, the end of the dollar, you know, hyperinflation. They remember the Weimar Republic. They remember Russia, the ruble. They've seen currencies coming out and they were like, "Oh, the ends, the end is near, right? They were stocking up food and shelter and guns and gold."
Taylor Avakian
Doomsday preppers.
Sandi Mann
Doomsday preppers. And you know, the go I call them the 3Gs, the god, gold, and guns guys. Yeah. and uh you know so that used to be your buyer and then it became more vogue once gold hit a thousand it got into the news. So here I was slanging gold as I call it and um you know I now built you know I was in it for a couple years and then I I wanted to move up. So I I I left a company I was with and they were they were the 800lb gorilla in the comp in the industry. They're backed by private equity, large national outfit, and I went to a smaller shop to run their sales organization. And I had a a sweat equity deal with the um um owner. So, um they were used to doing, you know, like a million a month of revenue.
Sandi Mann
And I said, "I'll only profit on anything above a million and you'll give me, you know, a 20% stake in profits." And he said, "That sounds good to me, Ken." And, you know, I grew their within 30 days. I brought over all these salespeople and revenue went from a million to 2 million to 4 million and that check was harder for him to sign every month and he got you know alligator arms and it was a very uncomfortable situation and you know you're never going to talk sensitive
Taylor Avakian
to a guy like that.
Sandi Mann
So after six months of doing that, we we parted ways and you know, I I was married at the time and my ex-wife was my biggest cheerleader and supporter and I actually it was on the phone with her on the way up here. Now it's like awesome. Never make enemies with people. Always be friends. You never know when you're, you know, when when your protege becomes your boss, right? You never know. Yeah. Life is funny. It's full circle. And so she'd said to me, she goes, "You need to start your own gold company." And um I was like we just watched this episode of Entourage where Ari started his his company and it was across the street from his competitor. Yeah. And um and I said, "You think I can do it?" She said, "I know you can do it." I said, "All right."
Sandi Mann
And I just uh I started and I had a partner back then. We were 50/50 on the on the on the on the deal. And he was a he was my right-hand guy in brokerage and sales. And um you know, I had one goal and it was to put that guy out of business. That's wow. And then and it wasn't in a resentful way, but in a like I built you up. Let me take back what I built from you. You keep what you started with and then I'm going to take off.
Taylor Avakian
Take it to the moon.
Sandi Mann
And you know that first year was so tough. You know, the US Army says, "Embrace the suck." And that's like it sucked. Yeah.
Taylor Avakian
Because so just so I can understand the brokerage or the gold brokerage business. Is it similar to like what real estate brokerages where it's a bunch of people in an office they're picking up the phone they're calling people and saying hey you want to buy some gold and you have these suppliers where they selling it for a th000 and you're selling it for,20 or,50 right you're you're selling it for a markup I guess you could say. So you were getting lists of people who had indicated that they wanted to buy gold or something. Exactly. And then you were calling them and trying to sell them a certain amount of gold.
Sandi Mann
Exactly. Yep. And you make your rip on that profit and a bunch of people would just co call them. Exactly. It was no different than Marcus Milichap.
Taylor Avakian
Got it.
Sandi Mann
So when I got into the gold business, there was these pods you sat in there, big walls and you were that one. There was no toing. There's no teamwork. Right. So when I started my company, we, you know, it was interesting. I wanted to model it after Marcus Milichap's fastpac floor. Mhm. And then also I had a bunch of friends who were in tech. So I was up in San Fran visiting some friends who worked at Salesforce and were working for for a lot of these really cool fun tech companies. And I took away from them. There was no walls on the floor. There's no high pods. It was shared desking. So we went online to Uline and bought shared desk dirt cheap and bought shared desking. We set up this office. Um I stocked the kitchen with um snacks. So I give every make sure there's cereal lacroy.
Sandi Mann
I wanted to give them perks and I put a ping pong table in the office and I brought my dog in. So when people come in interview they're like this company is cool like this cool office concrete floors exposed ceiling like I'm not used to working in an office like this. It's I only you know in our industry and real quickly you know there's an old saying is attraction not promotion and say well if you'd like to work here versus like you got to work here. So you want to attract them in. It's their idea. And within, you know, that first year was a little rough. You learn marketing, learn sales, you want to be everyone's friend, but you got to be their boss. There's that you're you're learning to be an entrepreneur and a boss and a capitalist allin one. And you want to be like a good
Sandi Mann
steward to your clients. So you've got to make everybody happy here. And um you know we started to get that recipe and then it's scaling and you know um year two grew the company. We now had like 25 employees. Year you know we did I think it was about 10 million our first year. Our second year we did like 30 million in revenue. The fourth year we were 40. Fifth year 50 million in revenue. And then we got stuck at 50 million in revenue. And you know it was there's only so much you can do. market conditions and and and gold at that point, Donald Trump was in office. Inflation was cooling off a little bit. There wasn't a a desire to leave the dollar. The dollar was gaining momentum. And so the um the buyer pool was shrinking a little bit. And I kept at it.
Sandi Mann
I didn't give up. And I said, so we had about 50 employees. And I, you know, the pendulum swings both ways. So I knew that if I can build up my company during this downturn and really strengthen my marketing, my affiliates, you know, the the people who promote my company, my sales floor, you know, my work ethic, you know, wake up early, stay up late, be a master at my industry, and take as many meetings as possible with people smarter than me. that when that time comes and it shifts the pendulum to the other direction, I'm gonna scale up and I'm gonna take everybody out. And I should also point out by now I had taken all those employees I had built up at that other company and he was back to doing a million dollar. Oh my gosh. And and it was great.
Sandi Mann
You know, he one time he had sent me a white flag literally like you know and I was cool. He's like you're like, "Okay, Damon, we're good." Yeah. Nothing to worry about. Um and then 2020 hit co and um and you had
Taylor Avakian
had the company for five years exactly 2015 is when you started.
Sandi Mann
Exactly. So five years we're in business co hits we start to see this um you know all the volatility
30:00–40:00
Sandi Mann
came to the the stock market dropped like 20% oil was negative and there was a rush to to safe haven assets and you know I thought it was the end of real estate.
Taylor Avakian
Mhm.
Sandi Mann
And I should point out by now, you know, when I started the company in 15, I didn't take my first profit until 2017. And that was when I bought my first real estate deal. So, I didn't know how to invest money because I didn't know anything about the stock market. And I I share this is like I bought Nvidia call options in December and like I got smoked on that. So, like I'm a horrible horrible timing's off. I had the right idea with Nvidia. It's a little too late or a little too early. So, I always say when people say, "What stock should I buy?" Inverse me. Yeah. Because I suck at stocks. But real estate I I think I know a little bit about.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
So, I started buying deals. I bought like an 8 unit, bought a 12 unit, a 20 unit. I just kept buying bigger deals. So, like whenever I made a dollar, half of 50 cents went to real estate. 25 cents went to savings and 25 cents went to lifestyle. And I kept that going. And um I started buying deals 2017, 2018, 2019, small deals in Long Beach. you know, the these small units and I would put, you know, 10 grand, 20 grand into it. I I remember my thesis was like if the studios are around a,000 a month and one bedrooms around $12.99 a month, I'm buying in. And today, you know, the studios are like 15, one beds are 17.95. So, it's worked. It's worked. You're positive cash flow. I would go back to the bank after 2, three years, pull my original equity out, buy
Sandi Mann
another deal, and just keep that going. I've only sold one deal. I always say never sell real estate unless you have to. Mhm. And I sold one one uh piece of real estate. We had got sued in one of these bogus habitability friends. Yeah. And I couldn't get HAB insurance, the worst. And it was sad. It was my first building I bought. But I bought it for 18 and I sold it for 36 and I'd already done a cash out. So I I made my money. I was just sad to see that first deal go.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
I look back now, I'm glad I sold it. You know, today it's a thorn in my side based on what I own.
Taylor Avakian
Your portfolio.
Sandi Mann
Exactly. So, you know, we 2020 hits, co hits, um, gold gets back in vogue and this was a point, you know, we brought in a recruiter. We scaled that company up. We went from 50 employees to 100 employees by year end. We went from 50 million or 40 something million revenue the year before to 150 million in 2020. And we tripled our our our revenue. And then I, you know, 2021, we were gang busters. We were out for blood. We did $560 million, Mike. We had 150 employees and now we became like that big national, right? Like that company I worked for years past workers come in. And you know the same business model. If it works, don't change it. Just scale it. Find out when you're like at 9,000 RPM. And if you're redlining, you got to drop a gear and figure
Sandi Mann
out what's how do I get to the next level 9,000 and then you go to the next gear. And so at this point, the next gear for me was private equity is bringing in outside capital and bringing in people smarter than me. Because remember, I sold electronics at Radio Shack, mattresses, real estate, never went to like business school, dropped out of college after three years, had a major in parting. Uh I didn't know what I was doing honestly. And I brought in people smarter than me and I brought in private equity group. They really helped bolster my company up and take it to the next level. and we did this this this debt recap deal which I then used to buy even more real estate. So, you know, I've got these two businesses moving side by side, gaining momentum, and we ended up doing um 750 million of revenue
Sandi Mann
in 2022, 880 in 2023. And you know, we did last four years we've done over three billion of revenue and and it's been gang busters. And um you know the the gold business has been good to me. Still hold office there. I've built up a um a great team around me of people that are smarter than me, that have a great work ethic, that are positive, that are great at, you know, and I I I share this is like any industry you're in, there's going to be the good guys and the bad guys. And we, you know, I like to think that we're the best of the best in that industry. And a lot of the the ways we've built and grown that is just through meeting great people and asking the right questions and and growing that. So, um, these days half my time is real
Sandi Mann
estate, half of it is my gold business and it's navigating through this changing real estate climate that we're in right now. It's tough. Yeah.
Taylor Avakian
I'm I'm curious. I want to uh double click on the the gold where you're at now. So you ended up selling a portion of the business to private equity and basically then you still have ownership in the business.
Sandi Mann
Still have ownership. I'm still the CEO and so you're in to leave anytime
Taylor Avakian
soon. When you were growing the business because this is something that I've dealt with as uh almost like a a brokerage, right? It's mini brokerage. So how did you identify what the bottlenecks were? And is the business model to grow a brokerage to get more bodies to sell or is there something that other other than bodies that can improve and get the margins and revenue up?
Sandi Mann
Sure. Um there's a six sigma um which is an accounting principle that GE used to really elevate their company. Um very fortunate my father my parents are both educators. My dad was an economist and a statistician and he wrote um statistics uh textbooks and he wrote some great bestsellers. So we grew up around numbers and my father wrote the textbook for the six sigma. So as I was growing my company I talked to my dad and he said you know you've got to give everyone a value of a one two three and they're either a one or two or a three. And a one is you know um your dialer. The two is like your middleman. He can sort of dial and close. And three is your closer. He's the guy who can bring the deal home.
Sandi Mann
And you've got to figure out how many ones you need to keep the twos happy and how many twos you need to keep the threes happy. And so I built this model where I needed four dialers for so four number ones, one number two, and one number three to keep everyone happy. And that way there was like this flow of deals. Everybody was eating, everybody was happy. And I kept that going and I had these six-man pods and there was four dialers, one middleman, one senior director. And you know, I also Alabama's football team, you know, like if they get an injury, the next guy up's like half an inch taller, tenth of a second faster. So I had to continue training guys so they can be the next running back or QB should I have a man down. People leave.
Sandi Mann
They go on do I've had I've had 10 of my employees start their own companies, you know. Um, and it's just that's natural attrition and I always wish them well. I'm an entrepreneur. I wish all of us well. If you're doing good, that means I'm doing good. So, it's all good. So, you know, building the bottleneck came from leads and salesman. That's the the two areas that keep your business going. Y and then to keep longevity is you got to have a healthy work environment. So, I was told that gossip is for middle management. Told that early on. So, if you're an entrepreneur or you're a business owner, if you're making fun of your employees or if you're in gossip, nobody's going to take you seriously or respect you. I'm not going to want to work for you.
Sandi Mann
Cuz if you tell if you're talking about somebody else bad, they're like, "Well, I wonder what they're saying about me behind your back." So, you keep a very professional relationship and in all your affairs, by the way, not just work, just in life in general. Yeah.
Sandi Mann
And that enabled me to be respected in the industry not only by my competitors but also by my colleagues. Yeah. And the we were attraction not promotion. I said that earlier and to this day we still attract a bunch we all every week there's like 10 guys who are like I work at ABC company. I'd love to work for you. And so we get to pick and choose. We're fortunate, the best of the best. And I always say is, you know, we would uh we would give anyone a shot. If you are willing to meet me halfway and you have good work ethic, I can train you to sell. I can train you to sell. I can at least train you to ask the right questions that the second you hear there's liquidity there and urgency.
Sandi Mann
Liquidity and urgency will get you over to the number two or the number three to get you a deal.
Taylor Avakian
So you you were big into training, I assume.
Sandi Mann
Still are.
Taylor Avakian
Still are huge training to sales skills stuff. As the role of the CEO of a bill multi-billion dollar corporation, what is your day-to-day look like from like what is a CEO's responsibility besides obviously growing the business? Like what does your day look like?
Sandi Mann
I mean, some days you're a therapist, some days you're you're a capitalist, some days you're an a CFO, some days you're you work every role. So, I like to think I've done every job at my company. And when you're an entrepreneur and you're starting off a company, you're the CMO, the CFO, you're the facilities manager. You're picking up messes. You're wiping out, you know, spills on all three.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
So, roll your sleeves up and don't be be be humble to do any job. And that way when you hire people to replace you in those areas as you grow, you understand what they're doing and you can be involved in the decisions to ratchet up the business, scale what's working, and let go of what's not. So I understand every aspect of my business. This is why founders are so successful and have a hard time letting go. You know I
40:00–50:00
Sandi Mann
if I was to hire a replacement for me as a CEO he's the average candidate has never sold gold or never sold in general in decades has had all this success comes in with their own ego with their own you know and and they may not transmit what you've grown as your company what what the foundations are they have a different one so I've been hesitant to find a replacement because it's working great. Yeah. Um, but the bottlenecks are sales and we've lost guys over
Taylor Avakian
the years. Yeah.
Sandi Mann
And we learned our lessons to that. Leads always stay relevant. You have to be marketing. You have to adjust to the market cycle to what's happening out there. As you know, in brokerage, you're getting whack-a-ole by regulation, city, this, that, cap rates, interest rates. Like, how do you acquies to 7.25% borrowing costs?
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
When your seller wants a three and a half cap. Yeah. You're like, "Something's got to change." And guess what? I have no control over Jay Powell.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
No control. And so, you've got to work through that and and figure it out.
Taylor Avakian
What is um what is the primary uh channel that you guys get leads from? Is it um there's not one channel these days?
Sandi Mann
And being a large, you know, large company, you're rely you're not relying on any one source.
Taylor Avakian
Like, are you doing direct uh social media? Are you doing um radio? Are you doing print? Are you doing lists calling like institutional companies? Like where how do you find the leads?
Sandi Mann
It's all private capital. Our clients um I stay away from what I call terrestrial um advertising forms, radio, TV commercials. Those are old and dying and ROI is so negative. And you got to be on there. 30 commercials a week on Fox Business to even get 10 phone calls and you're spending a million dollars a month on them. Yeah. So where else can I spend a million to get, you know, a 10 10x ROI? Internal measurement that I always use is if it's a 10 10 times return, I'm in. So we use a 10x model internally on marketing wherever lead source and it's pay-per-click, Google affiliate sources, email leads. Um we have a lot of influencers. We just signed Pierce Morgan the other day. Wow. He's one of our influencers. Bill O'Reilly, Megan Kelly. Uh at one point we had Rudy Giuliani who's one of our spokespeople.
Sandi Mann
such a great guy. It's sad to see his demise, but he was such a great steward for New York. Yes. Through those those rough times, but we've aligned ourselves with um needle movers, people actually move the needle. Um podcasts, those were a big one for
Taylor Avakian
us.
Sandi Mann
Wow.
Taylor Avakian
And um what's the company? Can you say the company name of my company?
Sandi Mann
Yeah, your gold. Oh, American Hartford Gold.
Taylor Avakian
American Hartford Gold. Okay. So that that's the company that you started and um I'm going to get into real estate soon but this is so fascinating to me. I just have to like understand this you know the salesman in me needs to understand what what this is like. So okay what are the typical cuz fees for brokerage right we're 3 to 5% typically um big institutional stuff maybe you're less than 1% but let's just say 1%. How uh what are the margins like on for the the sellers, right? Because you're making these people they have to make money on commission, I assume.
Sandi Mann
Yeah.
Taylor Avakian
And then what are the margins at the top level? Can you talk about that stuff at all?
Sandi Mann
Uh I prefer not to. Okay. Yeah. Got it. And I just you have a competitive advantage. Totally. We're vertically integrated and I'm in with the mens and this is where I crush my Got it.
Taylor Avakian
Okay. So all good.
Sandi Mann
That's a competitive advantage.
Taylor Avakian
So okay, that's interesting to know. We don't have to talk about the numbers but having a competitive advantage.
Sandi Mann
So during COVID, getting gold supply was impossible. Sellers were not willing to let go of it. The mints were shut down from production. I needed gold. So I hopped on a plane. I jumped on Zoom. I met with the, you know, the biggest suppliers in the globe, government mints, Australia, Malta. There's a little country called Malta that has a mint, the Finnish Mint, uh the British Mint, the Royal Canadian Mint. And I was telling asking all of them, "Give me supply. Let me be your your your dealer in North America, I'm going to push 10 20 million of your product a month. And as long as you give me supply, as fast as it comes in, it goes out." And it was through those relationships that I was able to have supply. There's a large online uh dealer called AppMax. Huge institution.
Sandi Mann
They need three to five billion dollars a year of revenue and but they're click add to cart checkout. There's no phone service. There's no, you know, a lot of our clients, they're not just buying one or two coins. They're diversifying a portfolio. So online, you're buying coins. With us, you're diversifying a portfolio.
Taylor Avakian
And are they holding it in the bank? It's like they're buying it and keeping it in the bank. So it's almost like you don't have to you're not really handling gold. You don't have a storage.
Sandi Mann
Oh, no. No, we are direct. We we touch every piece of gold that we sell.
Taylor Avakian
You have a warehouse or some bank vault somewhere where you have the gold and wow. Yeah.
Sandi Mann
So, we have vaults um Delaware, Salt Lake City.
Taylor Avakian
Do you buy the gold?
Sandi Mann
Oh, yeah. Physical gold.
Taylor Avakian
So, you buy it from the mint.
Sandi Mann
We buy the physical commodity and we sell it to the end user. And I would say about a third of our users, a third of our buyers take possession of the gold, whether it's in like a gun safe locally. Yeah. And then they um and then twothirds use third party storage that's that's um uh that we offer. We have no affiliation with those storage companies, but Brinks is one of the storage companies we use. Uh and then there's a couple institutional guys in New York and Delaware that we use in Texas.
Taylor Avakian
Wow.
Sandi Mann
Yeah. So they hold the gold for the client. The client can take delivery immediately and they just send a brink truck to deliver it or or FedEx sometimes. It depends on the size of the order. Yeah.
Taylor Avakian
That's insane. Okay. And I'm I'm I shouldn't get into the real estate aspect of it because this is a real estate podcast, but it's that's so fascinating and I I love that. Um, okay. So, let's talk about how you had familiarity with real estate. Obviously, you started buying it when you started making money. Give me the philosophy. Where are you at now with the portfolio? What's the plan? How are you looking at real estate versus the gold business? And let's dive into the real estate side.
Sandi Mann
Sure, I'd love to. Um my original thesis for buying real estate was um and and I still joke around is um some people call me a real estate professional, some people call me a principal. Um I call myself a hobbyist. Um I really don't know what I'm doing and and I share that because things are ever evolving and changing. How do you in your model put in their regulation? Like where's the the the column in the cell in Excel for regulatory risk?
Taylor Avakian
It's not there.
Sandi Mann
It's not there. Yeah. and you know you so as you're modeling deals and you're hoping for the best case outcome, it's you're never going to get there. There's always going to be something in your way that prevents you from it. If you're looking for true passive income, government debt, you know, get your 5% clip a coupon, go hang out on the Amalfi Coast, right? Um I'm an active owner and so my thesis originally buying was, you know, I was I was married and I thought if something happens to me, you know, our mortgage is 7,000 a month. I need to have 7,000 of income coming in in the event something happens to me monthly guaranteed that my wife could live. And so I originally set off to finding a deal that was going to get me seven grand a month.
Sandi Mann
And I found the deal, bought the deal, so I had seven grand. And then, you know, my wife had a car, I had a car. So I said, "Well, we got to replace, you know, our car. We need two grand a month of income for two cars." And then it became like replacing all of my And then it's like, okay, I'd like to travel. So what does that cost? So you have to find a deal. So originally I was only buying deals so I didn't have to ever work again so I could retire and have dependable um um cash coming in. And so that was my original thesis for buying. Once you get that once you hit that number now you're like now what? Now it's just fun and it was just fun.
Sandi Mann
you didn't need to make money and you were able to take a little bit more risk and you were able to take a little bit more risk on the buy side and on the flips and you were able to test a little bit more and and I'm I'm grateful that I have not had to raise outside capital. Um partnership deals um are not exciting to me. If I raise money from from three families, their urgency is not my urgency. God forbid right now you need to sell. It sucks. Cap rates are awful. You're going to be selling at a six plus cap, you know, 10 GRM if you're lucky. I just saw a portfolio the other day in Korea Town that's selling at a 7 GRM. Mhm.
Sandi Mann
When I first got into real estate, I remember one of the first calls I made was to a buyer and he said, "I'll buy anything that's around a six or seven GRM." I didn't know what that really meant at the beginning. I took it up to my senior and he said, "He's not a real buyer. Nothing sells at a 67 GRM." Fast forward 24 years later, there's a deal for seven sharat. You're like, where are we? So, so obviously right now is a horrible time to sell. It's also a time when people need money. There's liquidity concerns out there. And so, if you had a partner right now who needs to sell and you're forced to sell and you can't buy them out because you don't have the liquidity, screwed. If you can wait it out another year and cap rates compressed due to interest rate.
Sandi Mann
Um, and that might be sooner. You know, Trump's in office. He's already said the Federal Reserve is going to listen to him. If they don't listen to him, he might cause a market crash, which then the Fed drops rates. So, two reasons why is if inflation cools down, they might drop rates or we have a recession. So, if he can't get it one way, you might get it the other way. And again, I don't know what I'm doing in the stock market, so I'm not sure what's going to happen. Um, but my thesis for buying back then was value add class C, turn it into a class B, cuz a C is never going to become an A. You're not going to put an elevator shaft. You're never going to like
50:00–1:00:00
Sandi Mann
do all that work. But a B, a C to a B, easy lift. It's lipstick for the most part. It's tenant based. It's it's, you know, turning an apartment building into a community. Um, in recent years I've seen the dichotomy between class B and class A was so little like 12 1/2 GM versus a 12.
Taylor Avakian
Why would I not buy new construction?
Sandi Mann
And we talk about the regulatory risk. You know, obviously older product has more exposure to regulatory risk. Um, so I started buying new deals, anything that was built 2020 and newer. As you're running your existing portfolio, you also realize plumbing and electrical. Plumbing especially very expensive electrical to reo a building astronomical and with all the technology that everyone has the draw on electricity is more and more. So I said let me buy newer construction. I don't want the headache of the maintenance and I would like the ability to have free market rents that if there is a big boom in the rental market I can take advantage of it not just at a 3% or 5% a year increase. So um shifted that perspective in 2020 started buying only newer real estate started buying more core deals. Um I love Korea Town. I think that's a great neighborhood.
Sandi Mann
And it's interesting because when I look at deals now I look at as would I live here? Would I live in this building on this street on this intersection in this part of town? Korea Town is so much fun. Yeah. We I remember we looked looked at this deal in Korea Town. We went out to um um a Korean barbecue place. It was hopping at noon.
Taylor Avakian
So good.
Sandi Mann
It was so vibrant. The people there and it was clean. Like with all of LA's problems, the homeless problem in Korea Town wasn't as bad in some of the areas. There's a pride of ownership to the neighborhood there. So I like Korea Town. I like Marchmont a lot. I think that's a pocket that's undervalued. I think that's a safer like West Hollywood adjacent neighborhood of Beverlywood. Um I like those areas. I obviously love the west side. Um and so I started buying deals more in core areas that were brand new construction. And I would only buying deals from developers or owners who had to sell.
Taylor Avakian
Were they in a partnership where their partners were requiring them to sell? Are they a developer? Were their construction loans due?
Sandi Mann
They're in lease up. Guess what? those underwriting numbers are not hitting. Very aspirational on their underwriting. They're not getting $4,000 a month in rent. It's 3,200.
Taylor Avakian
Mhm.
Sandi Mann
If they lease it up at that, they're they're getting crushed. So now they need to sell. And that's where I came in. The syndicates are gone right now. It's really funny, you know, as in the retail world when the when syndicates right now is when they should be buying. Right now is when family offices should be raising so much capital that it's just people are like buy real estate right now.
Taylor Avakian
I couldn't agree more.
Sandi Mann
This year is going to be the best year to buy real estate. I think it's our last year before we start to see cap rate compression and start to get out of this rut. But it's funny because right now syndicates can't raise money. They raise money in good markets, but that's when prices are high. And it's really funny. They're late to the game.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
And the syndicates, their proof of concept is there. They believe in real estate. It's just hard convincing the public or their friends or the dentist or the doctor, give me a million bucks, let's buy a deal. And it's tough with this leverage that or the loans you're getting. And they're going to have to do a PG on a deal. So, the market is not conducive to two syndicates. There's only a few active people out there. I'm one of the active guys and that's how we came across. You you saw me transacting in this market and my thesis was buy below replacement cost, buying core areas where I can justify the rent and buying core areas where there's a lack of new development because there's needs to be supply. We need we need new deals. It's healthy for the market. We need new supply and with the ULA for developers, who's
Sandi Mann
developing a deal right now? The sellers on the land are are dropping their price. Construction loans are gone. Mhm. There's no development, very few development deals. I think four years from now, we look at supply, the crunch, and then there's going to be a rush development potentially if the regulatory world finds its way, ULA and all that. But I think there's going to be a a a supply crunch and the the uh cap rates are going to compress even more for newer construction in core areas. So, that's my thought on multif family or my belief on it. Um, and those are the fundamentals we're using.
Taylor Avakian
Is it cash flowing year one?
Sandi Mann
I mean, 3% cash on cash. I I'm not in it to make the money right now. I'm more long-term. Yeah. I don't Thank God I don't need that return on year one cuz I know I'm going to get asset appreciation and once I blend that into my IR, I'm gonna I'll be fine.
Taylor Avakian
Are you doing this real estate stuff and and if you look if you had to look ahead, you know, 10 10 years, 15 years, right? Do you want to have a specific portfolio size? Do you just play the game because it's a game and you enjoy the game, right? Like, do you have any idea on what that looks like?
Sandi Mann
When I first got into real estate, it was all about um I think it was like 25 grand a month is what I wanted in passive.
Taylor Avakian
Mhm.
Sandi Mann
When you hit that number, you're like, it's not enough or 50, 100 grand. And you hit that number, you're like, and you know, god forbid you spend a summer in Europe. Yeah. and you god forbid you charter a boat. God forbid you stay at I know on Capri, god forbid you, you know, you start skiing at well that number starts to increase your lifestyle increases. I've got a son. He'll be five in May. You know, we're thinking about him and his future and what he's going to school kid. Yeah. He loves cars just like this. He loves activities. He's part of all these all these different clubs and groups. And I want to give him everything. If he wants to do a summer abroad, I want to be able him to afford it. If he wants, you know, his first car to be that Saab, I'll meet him halfway.
Sandi Mann
And you know, so like you when you talked about like
Taylor Avakian
what's enough?
Sandi Mann
You know, they asked J. Paul Getty, how much is enough? And his response was a little bit more. And I had that same response. If you told me 25 years ago, $5 million, what would you do with it? I'd be retire Mexico d to me 5 million gives me anxiety. Yeah. And it's like that's not enough. You know, that's a death sentence. You're too rich to work and too poor to retire. And and we're just talking about LA 5 million else adjusted is um so when I first started off it was about replacing dollar amounts. Then it was about getting a 100 units. I thought 100 units you're like balling. Then I got 100 units and I didn't feel good. I like that's not enough. Then you get to 250. Then you get to 500. And then you're like, it's not about units anymore.
Sandi Mann
It's not about the aggregate value of your portfolio. It's about, let's keep doing this, man. I'm 45. I've got energy and I have time. And at some point, maybe you lose a little bit of that juice. At some point, you don't have as much time. So, you're glad you did it. Now, there's two things like when you're older that you might wish for yourself. and is that did I try as hard as I could and did I spend as much time with my family as I could have and I think about those two things right there and you know it's you know I have the momentum I have timing so there was a great video I watched on this uh he was a a gentleman who was became a billionaire in in the '9s and they'd asked him recently um could you replicate today if you
Sandi Mann
had to start zero replicate and be a billionaire in 25 years says I doubt it. And they're like, why? And he goes, you know, I timing. He goes, every industry that I was in. He was in oil and gas in the 80s. Um he had got into the mortgage business in the 2000s and then exited that company and he he done a bunch of ventures. It was all about timing. And if you have the right idea at the wrong time, if Elon Musk was building electric cars in 1920, Yep. who's buying?
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
It's all about timing. And as we look at AI right now, timing, you know, we're starting to see AI evolve into something that's relevant today. You know, I'm part of a a few real estate communities and some online chats and this guy was talking about AI underwriting his deals. I was like, this is brilliant. This is brilliant. And managing deals and sort of forecasting and budgeting and giving you, you know, how to how to run the portfolio and giving you what you should be doing dayto-day. So, I think we're just scratching the surface with AI, with all this technology, and I I think it's kind of like the internet in 1996, you know?
Taylor Avakian
Couldn't agree more.
Sandi Mann
You got onto the internet.
Taylor Avakian
What do I do?
Sandi Mann
I mean, I think my first search was boobs. Honestly, that was it. I didn't know what else to do, right?
Taylor Avakian
You're like, "Ah, man." And then look at look at where we are today.
Sandi Mann
Yeah.
Taylor Avakian
We could Oh my gosh. We're going to have to talk after this because I have a million ideas. Do you see yourself getting the itch to start another company, whether that be through the AI space? And the reason I say that too is because being in a brokerage space, there's so many inefficiencies that could be improved with AI. So if you have a software or system that helps improve that, not only does it help your business, but you could sell it as a software, as a service, right? Um, do you see yourself getting an itch to start something in this AI space?
Sandi Mann
You know, it's something that we've been looking into for two years at our company and we've implemented. We have an AI dialer. We we actually built a dialer that outbound dials and has a full conversation with you and it's a learning software. So, it continues to get better and better. So, the first iteration a year ago, you could tell this was an AI. You could you could get him stuck.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
And he just started. It's like your robot vacuum. First one got stuck in the corner and he came home, he was stuck. We have it down so well that nobody knows.
1:00:00–1:10:00
Sandi Mann
But he says, you know, I'm a intelligence assisted voice to here to help you
Taylor Avakian
for disclosures. Yeah, of course.
Sandi Mann
Um, that might be the future of it is you are and in brokerage or in sales, you're only working qualified leads. Imagine if you didn't have to make $1,000 a day or $500 a day and you could have 20 conversations a day. Do you think though that that's it's the world I want to be in.
Taylor Avakian
Do you think though that because I think about this a lot as a broker, right? Do you think there's a world that the AI gets so good at the closing that doesn't need us? That doesn't need us. The answer is yes. Yeah.
Sandi Mann
Right. So when as we look at Doge and they're looking at government inefficiencies and all these jobs that have been created that are not needed, it's not even about AI replacing them. Excel replacing them. Iron Mountain go underground fetch. you know, they can only do 10,000 retirements a month. They had to a manila envelope. When I found that out, I was like, are you kidding?
Taylor Avakian
Could they have gotten up to date?
Sandi Mann
Sure. But then they would lose their job. It's like the voting system.
Taylor Avakian
Could we go digital?
Sandi Mann
Of course. But all the registar voters would never allow that to happen because then they their job is obsolete. So why would I advocate to make myself irrelevant? So when we look at like AI, it's naturally going to come in gang busters and replace people. Will it replace brokerage? I mean, look, real estate agents still exist and we've thought for the longest time
Taylor Avakian
that industry would be everyone's tried to Yeah.
Sandi Mann
for sale by owner put out the system should be like an eBay zill that model is here for good. I think that people still like dealing with other individuals on certain things. For like the commoditized items, Amazon's great. I don't know the last time I've been. Actually, it was after the fires. I went to Target.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
Been there in 10 years. And I remember taking my cart. I went up and down every aisle because I was like, "What do I not know that I need?" I blinders on. You get the normal stuff and I found like a pencil sharpener. I need a sharpener. But like I would never think to buy a like it was like the little things. There's a couple things and a couple toys for the dog. So like when we think about these cathartic experiences that we have that that interpersonal touch that is so valuable and needed.
Taylor Avakian
so important.
Sandi Mann
It's always going to be there in certain areas and I can't guess here on your podcast where those areas are going to be, but you know, you're not going to replace certain um sales or certain jobs or certain roles out there. I think the service industry is going to be there for a long time. You know, I just bought my first shopping center, by the way. Congratulations. Thank you. I uh local bought a deal on Venice Boulevard in Culver City.
Taylor Avakian
Okay.
Sandi Mann
right near the studios, right near all that new excitement. I bought it because I've noticed a reduction of cash flow from all my multif family as everyone else has. Rents are not keeping up. Expenses are through the roof.
Taylor Avakian
I mean, energy costs. Yeah. Utilities are going to go up 30% over the next 3 years. They already said that they're going to increase them.
Sandi Mann
So, did you see how crazy for every dollar of energy that it costs the consumer, 40 cents of that dollar is government regulation. There's 300 groups in energy in California. 300 groups that have to be paid before PG& that is crazy. So like when we look at some of the you know expenses I I decided to divest into um a shopping center to try it out. I never really like shopping centers for two reasons. cuz I don't know what the world future of retail is going to look like and you can only push rents up so much. Like it's a business and 550 a foot that's that's a lot of rent. Mhm. So I looked into this. I started doing some research and I realized there's so many, you know, you can look at it as a covered land place as long as like Maine and Maine.
Sandi Mann
You can look at it as maybe in the future it's six. It's a ghost kitchen. It's a drive-thru for Ubers or Whimo or some automated driving system or drones that picks up food and drops it off, but it's going to be needed like the kitchen idea that can't be AI. The the the use case can be. Yeah. But they still need the real estate. Y So there's still a functional use for real estate land period.
Taylor Avakian
AI can't make land.
Sandi Mann
Can't make land. Not that we're I don't think it's going to be making land in the future. Meta said AI can make land. He sold a bunch of real estate, but you know that's pie in the sky. Exactly.
Taylor Avakian
Like and I think that's a great that is a great view because if you have good real estate location there will always be demand in a great location. And there's some to say okay is the location go up or down? Detroit obviously sure but the fact of the matter is Los Angeles is here to stay. It is California is the fifth biggest economy, fourth biggest economy in the world. Correct. there will we don't have enough housing. We don't have there's enough people here. Like if you buy good land real estate, there will be future opportunities and demand. And so that's great.
Sandi Mann
I agree. I I also don't think we bet against, you know, um not to get political on your podcast, but I think that LA post fires. There's been awakening. Mhm. It's like what really matters, you know? So, like the concept I share with you is like, you know, we all live in a home or an apartment or dwelling of some sort. If my roof had leaks in it, but I was fixing everyone else's roof except mine, and then I fixed your roof. I said, "Well, let me plant a couple of avocado trees for you." And you're like, "I don't even need avocado trees." Jack, you're going to want avoc I'm going to make you want avocado. So, now we're forcing people to have avocado trees and I'm going to force a guy with strawberry allergies to have a strawberry field.
Sandi Mann
We're doing all this work in areas, but my own roof is leaking and I have plumbing problem and now I've got electrical shorts and I refuse to pay attention to the basic necessities of my dwelling. I think we've in LA we've reached the brink. It's not about Republican. It's not about Democrat. It's about common sense. And you know, I think we saw with leadership the mayor versus the mayor candidate of what who survived what business center are still there.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
And yeah, Palestine's not. And as sad as that is, and if that's what it took for us to wake up, which which that's sad.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah, for sure.
Sandi Mann
But I look at that as is common sense going to come back into play and it's not Democrat, it's not Republican, it's just basic common sense. Are we going to go back to like providing basic, you know, safety, health, you know, addressing the mental illness problem, not the homeless problem, but the mental illness problem, right? And I, you know, I want to just share on the mental illness problem. One thing I left out of your podcast is I've been sober 17 years and me moving to LA was to reset my life, you know, working in brokerage and I love those days. We partied hard.
Taylor Avakian
Mhm. You know, it was a lot of late nights that turned into the next morning.
Sandi Mann
Yeah. And I realized at 28 years old when the market stopped that I had to change my lifestyle. I had to change my perspective. I had to get healthy. So, I quit drinking. I was doing a [bleep] ton of blow. And I had to quit doing blow. And I had to get back to just being me. Y and I'm a big advocate for mental health. Mental health. I, you know, I'm very involved in the community. I donate time, effort, and money, more money than time and effort, but money to a lot of organizations in LA and the greater part of uh Los Angeles County to address mental illness. I volunteer with different groups. And you know, I've seen success stories, including myself. So when I see these people suffering on the street, shooting up, doing drugs, and just begging
Sandi Mann
for help, and they're not begging for housing, throw them in a dorm, they're not going to. It's mental illness and addressing that. And and I work with a couple of phenomenal groups that have successfully gotten people sober and kept them sober and given them jobs and put them back into the community to work and to be of use and helpful and for them to build self-esteem off of that. So they want to stay sober and they go on to build families or companies like me and you know we're doing them a disservice by not providing mental health you know and and and you know the voters we voted on 36 was 36 the mental health measure and what has the government done nothing we voted for that and they've refused to address that and build mental health in you know and so like there's going to be a
Sandi Mann
reckoning in LA and California I truly believe in two years and in three years. And I think once we get back to basics, because California has said the sunshine tax, how much advantage can we take from that sunshine tax? Oh, we'll keep the gas prices be we'll be the highest in the nation. Even though we're pumping it, you know, 30 mi south here off the coast, it'll be the highest gas prices in the nation. Energy prices, oh, we're going to charge the heck out of energy. And every time there's a natural disaster, we're going to blame them. and versus like what rather than spending all this money on regulation, why don't we just bury power lines? So some of the problems like the eaten fire didn't happen and why don't we deforest and why don't we fill reservoirs and just the basic utilities.
Sandi Mann
The Palisades paid $550 million in property taxes last year. Do you think that everyone who paid property taxes felt like oh this
Taylor Avakian
is towards water and the hydrants?
1:10:00–1:20:00
Sandi Mann
It's toward public service. is towards firefighters, police protection, and something happens. That's why they're paying, you know, the property taxes aren't going to properties. They're not going. They're going to other programs. And like this ULA tax, is it going to the homeless problem or is it going somewhere else? So, like again, I wish Doge would come through LA and California. Yeah. And really fix and clean up.
Taylor Avakian
Yeah.
Sandi Mann
You know, and it's it's sad.
Taylor Avakian
Do uh common sense. Do you see yourself getting into politics in the leadership role?
Sandi Mann
Yeah, that's a great question. I I've been very active. Um my good friend David Hawkman called me two years ago. He said, "Hey, my brother's running for uh for the uh district attorney." Like, Nathan, he goes, "Yeah, I go he salted there. Great guy." He goes, "Would you support him?" I said, "Listen, there's 12 candidates and I had a couple other friends who were running and I said, "Let me let me grab breakfast with them." And I started getting involved in his campaign and we started raising money for him and truly I talked with Nathan, Nathan, do you know like what is your first 100 day plan? What are you going to turn is it really going to get better or are you just another candidate? you know, and he's the real deal. And um I' I've been fortunate to know, you know, a lot
Sandi Mann
of people like him, and I've been fortunate through, you know, my my help in the community to meet some leaders. And um you know, I'm in the where I am currently, I'm still, you know, I'm still an entrepreneur, active. Um still have my earning years ahead of me. Um but at some point, I'd love to get into politics. Um, but not at a level and and I I'll run on one factor is I'm never going to run for president because I was born in London, England. So like that's just like no, everyone's like they
Taylor Avakian
have the next path, right?
Sandi Mann
But like you know um parks and recreation, remember that show parks and rec Leslie? Nope. She cared about politics, man. I mean she cared about her community. Like she's that's a old school like people actually care. Right now it's about reputation. It's about my next job. So I have to be very careful in this job to not offend people to do just enough and maintain but not too much that we solve the problem and now we don't need these departments anymore. We have it wrong. So if if I ever got into politics, it would be from that premise of like like Tracy Park is doing great work. Yeah. God bless her. Yeah. You know, now they're like a mayor candidate in two three years. Let her do her current job and if she's the right candidate, we'll elect her. Mhm.
Sandi Mann
But there's, you know, there's so many opportunities to be of service to your community, whether it's politics or nonprofits or just, you know, and I I say this all the time, and I know it's not feasible, but like I wish everyone was able to own a home. The day you get that first mortgage bill, that first property tax bill, you now comprehend where your tax dollars are going. So, you get a little more in tune of like, wait, you know, what's my ROI on these tax dollars? You also get pride of ownership. a level of respect for property. You know, there's an old saying is leave things equal or better than when you found them. And when you become an owner of your own condo, apartment, home, whatever, you start to have that selfrespect. And I think that we need to go back to that and and that doesn't exist.
Sandi Mann
And I think that, you know, a community leader needs to share that information with the community. And it's less on do as I say, not as I do, but more from like basic fundamentals of let's get the comm let's, you know, look, I can rely on public works or I can do it myself. I'm a self-reliant human being. During the fires, you know, I my home, we had put Tesla power walls and solar panels and I have Starlink for redundant internet in the event, you know, Frontier goes out and we're completely off the grid. I have zero reliance on like public works with the exception of gas. I don't have gas tanks. I don't need that. But like my home was online the entire time that we were off the grid. We were evacuated for 8 days. And like that self-reliance if we can come to that point not to
Sandi Mann
that level maybe because you know again it's if you have the ability to do that but like you know back to that politics question is like how can I improve the community? And if my answer is no, then I have no job being in public service.
Taylor Avakian
And is my goal to improve the community?
Sandi Mann
If my answer is no, or is my goal like a future like to be governor? Then don't get into local politics because you're never going to affect your local neighborhood for the guy they elected because you have a future goal of getting a better job. So like I think we're very shortsighted with some of those things. And um common sense, not red or blue, common sense. Yeah. You know, it's uh there's a principle that I've used for my company. It's a saying that I I learned a long time ago and it's a saying of our common welfare comes first. And if you could have that attitude when you are a company owner or a civic leader and say common welfare comes first, not my personal interest.
Taylor Avakian
Do I win or do they win or do we all win?
Sandi Mann
And getting into that perspective. And if you can truly get into a selfless perspective, you now deserve have earned your right to be a civic leader, to be a leader for a company, an organization, an entrepreneur because you're going to do something really amazing out there and you're going to be successful. That's a byproduct of doing something
Taylor Avakian
amazing. Sandy. Wow. This was uh this was incredible. We went in a million directions and I can tell why you were as successful as you are because Taylor, you clearly know how to uh do what you need to do and make things happen and you put in the effort and the results come. So Sandy, thank you very much for being here.
Sandi Mann
Taylor, it was great to have uh great to be on your podcast. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Yeah, appreciate it. Great.